I am heartbroken over what is happening in Texas. I watched some of the coverage online last night and sat shocked. Regardless of how much I disagree with FLDS beliefs, no matter how much I loath the thought of polygamy, and as much as I pray that these folks would turn from their strange doctrines and embrace the Jesus of the Bible, I can't for the life of me figure out how anyone can justify stealing over 400 children from their parents.
I went to sleep last night with images in my head of terrified children being ripped from the arms of their weeping mothers. I can't imagine how these families are suffering right now! I am beyond outraged over the injustice - the rights of these parents have been horribly violated! And what type of precedence does this set? Have we thought of the real implications here?
I went to sleep last night with images in my head of terrified children being ripped from the arms of their weeping mothers. I can't imagine how these families are suffering right now! I am beyond outraged over the injustice - the rights of these parents have been horribly violated! And what type of precedence does this set? Have we thought of the real implications here?
Scott Henson, in an article for the Dallas News, said this:
"In Eldorado, no one alleges YFZ parents are themselves abusing children. Instead the allegation (in court, at least) is that they're teaching their kids that a woman's highest calling is giving birth and raising children and that it's acceptable to get married at an early age. Even if it were true, and the allegation was disputed, can this really be enough to seize children from their homes?"
I keep hearing about abuse, but where? I haven't heard of one verified instance of abuse being found. Who gets to decide what we're allowed to teach our children and what should be considered "dangerous" or "cultish?" The state? Here's a quote from MSNBC that should give us all pause:
“Experts and lawyers fear the children's transition to foster care may be much harder than it is for other foster children...Many of the children have seen little or no television. They have been essentially home-schooled all their lives. Most were raised on garden-grown vegetables and twice-daily prayers with family. They frolic in long dresses and buttoned-up shirts from another century.”
Such abuse! How horrible! Let's rip these poor children from their families before they miss out on the necessary and oh-so beneficial experience of MTV and the hook-up culture.
“Experts and lawyers fear the children's transition to foster care may be much harder than it is for other foster children...Many of the children have seen little or no television. They have been essentially home-schooled all their lives. Most were raised on garden-grown vegetables and twice-daily prayers with family. They frolic in long dresses and buttoned-up shirts from another century.”
Such abuse! How horrible! Let's rip these poor children from their families before they miss out on the necessary and oh-so beneficial experience of MTV and the hook-up culture.
From the same article, Mr. Henson addresses the judge:
"Excuse me, Judge? You issued a sweeping, house-to-house search warrant based on a highly questionable anonymous call that turned out to be phony. You refused to allow individual hearings for children, grouping them together like cattle. You accepted the testimony of an expert on "cults" who only learned about FLDS from media accounts, rather than an academic who'd studied them professionally for 18 years.
You've ruled the existence of five girls between 16 and 19 who were pregnant or had children was evidence of systematic abuse, even though in Texas 16-year-olds can marry with parental consent. You've ruled young toddlers are in "immediate" danger because of their parents' beliefs or what might happen 15 years from now, not because anyone abuses them.
From the evidence presented publicly, I do not believe that the children have been sexually abused or physically harmed. Allegations of forcible rape turned out to be bogus, and only five girls 16 to 19 years old were found pregnant or with children – probably about the same ratio you'd find if you rounded up all the kids in my neighborhood.
Instead, I wonder what it would be like for these children to be torn from a loving family by people whose message is this: Everyone who loves you is bad. Everything you believe is wrong. The God you've been taught is a fraud, and belief in Him is harming you."
You've ruled the existence of five girls between 16 and 19 who were pregnant or had children was evidence of systematic abuse, even though in Texas 16-year-olds can marry with parental consent. You've ruled young toddlers are in "immediate" danger because of their parents' beliefs or what might happen 15 years from now, not because anyone abuses them.
From the evidence presented publicly, I do not believe that the children have been sexually abused or physically harmed. Allegations of forcible rape turned out to be bogus, and only five girls 16 to 19 years old were found pregnant or with children – probably about the same ratio you'd find if you rounded up all the kids in my neighborhood.
Instead, I wonder what it would be like for these children to be torn from a loving family by people whose message is this: Everyone who loves you is bad. Everything you believe is wrong. The God you've been taught is a fraud, and belief in Him is harming you."
And Tim Lynch, of the Cato Institute, had some interesting thoughts:
"If a child says 'I love my parents and want to go home,' it means he has been brainwashed by the 'cult.' And if a child says 'I like my foster parents a lot. They give me candy and the video games are awesome,' it means the child’s actual parents are unfit.
"State authorities talk a lot about rape and forced marriages, but 300 children are ages 4 and below. They should be sent home because there is no evidence of abuse. All the boys should go home because there’s no evidence of abuse. As for the remaining girls, they have been held for 3 weeks already … the judge should give the police one more week to present evidence or they should be going home too. The investigation can continue, but 3+ weeks in custody is enough already.
"When it comes to separating children from the parents, the burden of proof must be borne by the state."
"If a child says 'I love my parents and want to go home,' it means he has been brainwashed by the 'cult.' And if a child says 'I like my foster parents a lot. They give me candy and the video games are awesome,' it means the child’s actual parents are unfit.
"State authorities talk a lot about rape and forced marriages, but 300 children are ages 4 and below. They should be sent home because there is no evidence of abuse. All the boys should go home because there’s no evidence of abuse. As for the remaining girls, they have been held for 3 weeks already … the judge should give the police one more week to present evidence or they should be going home too. The investigation can continue, but 3+ weeks in custody is enough already.
"When it comes to separating children from the parents, the burden of proof must be borne by the state."
You can listen to Mr. Lynch's podcast on the subject HERE.
And another must read: "Increasingly I'm coming to think that the case against the Eldorado polygamist compound may be a setup job." - Scott Henson
"Don't get me wrong: True pedophiles should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But that's a little different than changing the law to redefine historic religious practices by a particular sect as "pedophilia," which is what Rep. Hildebran did. Similarly, there's a big difference between investigating an individual, anonymous complaint from a single teenager, and forcibly taking 419 children away from their homes based on guilt by association.
I'd feel the same way if the state decided to seize all the children of parishioners in a Catholic church whose priest had been accused of pedophilia. What's the difference between that and what's happening in West Texas based on allegations against one man?
As Fox News' Greta Van Susteren declared, "being weird isn't a crime." And the alleged crimes of one man don't justify violating the rights of hundreds. When we identify "weird" people whose religious beliefs we don't like and pass laws criminalizing that behavior, as Hildebran did, to me that borders on "prohibiting the free exercise" of religion. This whole episode strikes me as grandstanding and overkill." - Scott Henson
Also, listen to Kevin Swanson's podcast.
And my husband, James McDonald's thoughts.
Texas 911 Calls Linked To 33-Year-Old in Colorado
"SAN ANGELO, Tex., April 23 -- The phone calls that triggered a massive raid on a polygamist compound in west Texas -- in which a quavering girl's voice described being forcibly married at 15 -- have been linked to a Colorado woman with a history of making false claims of sexual abuse, according to an affidavit filed in Colorado Springs.
The affidavit says calls that allegedly came from "Sarah Barlow" -- a teenage girl at the Yearning for Zion Ranch outside Eldorado, Tex. -- actually came from numbers connected to Rozita Swinton, 33, [State Democratic Delegate] of Colorado Springs. The affidavit also notes Swinton's possible involvement in a series of separate but similar reports in which the young caller described being abused by a pastor, an uncle or her father."
They're Coming for Your Kids - World Net Daily
I'd feel the same way if the state decided to seize all the children of parishioners in a Catholic church whose priest had been accused of pedophilia. What's the difference between that and what's happening in West Texas based on allegations against one man?
As Fox News' Greta Van Susteren declared, "being weird isn't a crime." And the alleged crimes of one man don't justify violating the rights of hundreds. When we identify "weird" people whose religious beliefs we don't like and pass laws criminalizing that behavior, as Hildebran did, to me that borders on "prohibiting the free exercise" of religion. This whole episode strikes me as grandstanding and overkill." - Scott Henson
Also, listen to Kevin Swanson's podcast.
And my husband, James McDonald's thoughts.
Texas 911 Calls Linked To 33-Year-Old in Colorado
"SAN ANGELO, Tex., April 23 -- The phone calls that triggered a massive raid on a polygamist compound in west Texas -- in which a quavering girl's voice described being forcibly married at 15 -- have been linked to a Colorado woman with a history of making false claims of sexual abuse, according to an affidavit filed in Colorado Springs.
The affidavit says calls that allegedly came from "Sarah Barlow" -- a teenage girl at the Yearning for Zion Ranch outside Eldorado, Tex. -- actually came from numbers connected to Rozita Swinton, 33, [State Democratic Delegate] of Colorado Springs. The affidavit also notes Swinton's possible involvement in a series of separate but similar reports in which the young caller described being abused by a pastor, an uncle or her father."
They're Coming for Your Kids - World Net Daily
Note: The mainstream Mormon (LDS) religion does not acknowledge the Fundamental Mormon (FLDS) group as one of their own. However, even mainstream Mormonism, whether or not they follow all of the teachings of Joseph Smith, is not part of the Christian religion.
56 earnest comments:
Mrs McDonald,
I really appreciate your blog and
I am glad that you posted this. My husband and I have been following this story closely. It is very scary to think that a disturbed person (in another state!)can call authorities and cause this much turmoil.
Thank you for your insight.
Kristy Orfield
I know I wouldn't want to have been expected to marry at 16. I didn't feel my brain was fully formed until around 21.
WOW! Thank you for sharing this! My husband and I have been discussing this and feel the exact same way! While we do not agree with polygamy, and some of the wrong beliefs of this cult- we feel it HAS set a dangerous precendence for our nation. This is so very sad, and we believe it is the families who are being abused by the state! What will be next!?!
I wholeheartedly agree with your post! Excellent!!
It definitely is a sad and messy situation! I, too, am deeply, deeply saddened thinking of those children longing for their mothers and the mothers sitting, with empty arms, wondering when, if ever, they will see their children again.
The way the entire thing has been handled was not done well, at all. However, I think there are some very wrong things going on. I would like to say "theology aside", but that is the very thing that has established and fueled this compound and the families who live there - very messed up theology.
Even abused children, when torn from the "security" of their abusive parents - something that may be horrible but they can rely on to always be one way and know what to expect - will say they love their parents (what child DOESN'T love their parents, despite all? It is innate) but that does not mean that abuse is not present. A child longs for their parents and their home life to be perfect (whole, loving, healthy) and, at least until a certain age, will hope against hope that an abusive parent will change, that an abusive parent will love and parent them they way they innately know they should be. And even when it's not, when they are torn from the familiar they want it back.
While the mothers may be "ok", loving, not "abusive" in terms that we think of, the lifestyle IS a cult, and children were being mistreated. The people have been isolated by their leaders from any other way of thinking, from any outside influence, and disciplined harshly for any misstep. These are classic signs of a cult. God created us with free-will, to choose Him willingly. He did not isolate His children from the world - in fact, His plan was the exact opposite. He led Israel through all the lands of their enemies to get to the land He had promised them. The way these people were/are forced to live is not the way God intended. Yes, some [say they] choose to live this way, but for many it's the only way they've known, and they've been told outrageous stories about the outside world to frighten them into obedience, rather than given the freedom to choose for themselves.
Even if the phone call that "broke the dam" was a hoax, there ARE young girls there that are pregnant and many who have already had children. What 13 year old girl would willingly give her body to a 40 year old? Or to her own cousin? Everything in us (God's law that He put in our DNA when we were made in His image) says it's wrong for a man to desire that (and not just from one girl, as if there were an exception that he would truly love her and want to protect her, but from many women - a status symbol of power).
And many of the women who are adults now were not when they were first given in marriage - without a choice to whom it would be - and were teenagers, likely younger than 18 or even 16, when they were fist pregnant.
The young boys are being raised believing this is the way life should be. There are well-documented congenital defects like hemophilia and various syndromes as a result of inter-family breeding, to put it frankly. I think that is evidence of this way of life being a physical transgression of God's plan, as well as a spiritual transgression.
Have you read any of the personal accounts from women who choose to leave (when they were able to) and who escaped (when they felt their life and children were threatened if anyone knew)?
They tell a very different story than happy children eating lots of vegetables and playing outside all day, particularly with this cult/family/compound. When Warren Jeff's father took over, things became very industrious, TV was outlawed (not that TV is a right every American has, but it was a measure to isolate them from any outside influence, instead of allowing them to judge for themselves with the wisdom of God what is lovely, pure, right, etc. and to choose for themselves to live that way). When Warren took over, things became even more severe. Many women have said the children wake up at 4am, some even earlier, and do chores all day long. Yes, there's benefit in hard work and learning responsibility, but these children were work-horses, to wear them down and make them more easily influenced by their ideas and less likely to question authority.
The sad mothers and the children missing them are, unfortunately, not the only part of the story. It wasn't handled well, but to ignore it is no different than seeing something else in society that is not right and turning a blind eye because "Do we really know or not if they are happy?" The Law is written in our hearts and this whole situation doesn't line up with it. The leaders of this cult are not loving God with their whole self, and not loving the women and children as themselves. They are controlling and deceiving them to satisfy their own lusts of the flesh.
There's not an easy solution, but perhaps God will use this to lead many of those children, maybe even some of their mothers, into His loving Truth, into whole Life in Him.
I am glad you wrote about this , I have cried for these children and their parents every day. We lie in a country who's birth came from people fleeing persecution. We were founded on a basis of freedom of belief and have no problem with people believing their own beliefs.
a few things that I have been thinking about.
Outside of their belief system their are thousands of teenage mothers , Unmarried and unsupported in the us. CPS doesn't go taking them away from their parents every time someone winds up pregnant.
my great grandmother was 12 and my great grandfather 14 when they were married , my grandmother 18 and my grandfather 15 when they were married. My Mother 18 and my father 15 , and i the odd one waited till i was 25 and 26 till i had my first child.
My Most beloved aunt as 14 and her husband 42 , they were happily married for over 30 years when he was lost to Alzheimer , she although remarried and happy still visits and tends her aged first husband every week.
These are just some of my thoughts.
and i worry for a world who's judgment of a book with an already obscured cover is so easily declared the correct judgment , when only the first three pages have been read.
I definitely agree with you here. If there is no actual abuse going on, it's monstrous to take these children away from their home. I disagree with their beliefs as well, but I disagree with many beliefs. If no is being harmed, then they deserve the freedom to practice the religion they choose.
The public does not know all the facts as you mentioned because children are involved. Court cases involving children, especially custody cases, are not publicized for the good of the child.
I hope in time that the Texas authorities will be able to ascertain who is who and how old they are. I hope they will be able to discover who's child is who's. It will take a long time for the DNA results to discover this information. The polygamist adults are not forthcoming with any information.
I believe the state of Texas had no other recourse other than to take the children from the homes for their own protection.
It has been reported that there are girls that are underage who have borne children - this equals statutory rape and child abuse. That is evidence enough for me to be glad that the children were removed from the home.
Is it a dangerous precedence? Possibly. If we live our lives in Christ without tarnish and follow the laws of the land, we have nothing to worry about.
Gina
I agree with what you said about the type of precident this sets! One of these days someone may very well decided that being "quiverfull" is illegal, and take my kids away. These thoughts cause me to have an even greater compassion for the families involved in this case.
Hi Jenn,
I appreciate your thoughts and agree that their perverted theology is part of the deeper problem here. However, the question to me is where to draw the line.
From what I've read so far, there is absolutely no proof of sexual or physical abuse. In the beginning there were allegations of a pregnant 13-year-old that turned out to be bogus. There were allegations of forced marriages, but again, no proof.
There are girls as young as 16 in the camp who are married, but Texas law does allow marriage at 16with parental consent. And not that long ago, this was a generally acceptable age to be married (not that I'm for it! LOL).
I agree, it's messy. I feel sorry for the whole situation. This group needs the Gospel. But is that what the state will provide? Hardly. Can you imagine some of the dangerous situations they may be placed in? Not all foster homes are run by families doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.
I believe these kids were in a bad situation - just as their parents were, they were in a cult afterall, but should our government get to decide what type of lifestyle we should be living? Should they get to define brainwashing?
What if our government decides that teaching Creation, rather than Evolution, is abusive and restrictive? What if they decide homeschooling or teaching the Bible is a form of brainwashing? Should they have the right to steal our children?
I'm very concerned that this sets us up for some horrible situations in the future. It opens up all sorts of doors. The state must not undermine the parents. Unless a law has been broken and children are truly proven to have been abused, I believe the state should leave these families alone.
And no, I havent' read the accounts of people who used to be in the group, but left. Was it the very same group? I admit I don't know much about cults or mind control etc., but it seems to me that could get taken to the extreme. How in the world do you prove someone is under the "mind control" of a cult if they tell you they're not and there's no visible harm being done? Who gets to decide that you're "not really" happy, you just "think" you are.
That being said, God is sovereign; and I do pray that through this ugly situation, God will place true and faithful Christians in the paths of these precious moms and children (and dads) who will share with them the awesome, redeeming power of our true and wonderful Savior! May God lift from them the powerful deceptive nature of Mormonism and give them His Grace.
Hi Gina,
You said, "If we live our lives in Christ without tarnish and follow the laws of the land, we have nothing to worry about."
That isn't always so. There are many godly Christians who have suffered for the sake of Christ. Men, women, and children who are persecuted, maligned, slandered, and martyred for standing up for what they believe. That being said, that's not what has happened here.
You are right - I am sure there's a lot more to the story than we know - probably on both sides. And if there has truly been abuse, I pray they will get help from a godly family and that help will be provided to the mothers as well.
And let's say there has truly been abuse. Let's say there are a handfull of girls who would fall under the "statutory rape" charge. Why take all 400 boys and girls - babies and toddlers? All for what "might" happen in the future? You can't do things that way.
And what about the underage moms who were separated from their babies? And why not leave the mothers and children there and arrest the dads? Why keep them locked up as if they are in a prison?
What crime have the moms committed? What are the real and substantiated charges? I'm just having a really hard time with the heavy handed tactics that were taken; as well as the fact that I have not heard of any proven charges of abuse.
Mrs. MacDonald, I respect your opinion but I think that you are leaving out a number of important points.
The call may be bogus or it might not. The 16 year old might not exist. Or perhaps she's been taken away to another FLDS compound. But there are children being abused in this compound.
The standard spanking for discipline is with a board or other hard object. This has been backed up by multiple escapees from the compound. And that's the minimum standard for physical discipline. It is acceptable in their community for physical discipline to be much more intense.
Warren Jeffs, their "prophet" changed the marriage age to 14. That means that girls are getting married as young as fourteen so that they can begin bearing children immediately. It keeps them tethered to the community. To refuse a marriage is to defy your parents, God's Prophet, and God Himself. And if you go against your parents or husband, they can require "blood atonement" or in other words, your death.
The Texas site was chosen specifically by Jeffs because you don't need birth or death certificates in Texas. It allowed an even greater hold on his people.
Children have been physically abused, psychologically abused, and sexually abused, and there is no recourse, no failsafe. They can't contact the police because the police are FLDS members and loyal to the "Prophet". They can't go to their mothers or a sister wife because they follow the men. The men are more than just the head of the household, they are the priest, prophet, and voice of God. The men decide whether or not you go to heaven in their faith, so going against them is risking your immortality.
To complain or call out is to not "keep sweet", a common phrase used in families to encourage women to remain compliant.
Some young boys are driven from the compound and abandoned without an education beyond the sixth grade.
I believe in a woman's right to be modest. I believe in a family's right to follow their faith as their conscience dictates. This isn't about that. This is about the abuse of children. And, as much as my heart aches for their mothers, they are not protecting their children.
Whether or not the call was legit, the allegations are true, more and more evidence is coming to light proving it.
I would like to see the children returned to their families and failsafes placed in the community that would allow women to get out safely with their children, or make reports of domestic abuse. Still, that's going to be hard when they've been taught that we outsiders are agents of Satan.
I've been following this story for a long time, and while I'm heartbroken that it's come to this, I pray that they can save people who've been trapped there with no one to rescue them.
I would highly recommend reading Escape, by Carolyn Jessop and Under the Banner of Heaven by John Krakauer and then write a blog post about "children being ripped from the arms of their mothers."
I'm pretty much a libertarian, but in this case, I am incredibly thankful that the government FINALLY intervened here. Sexual, physical, verbal, and psychological abuse among the FLDS are well-documented facts. The Texas authorities were probably waiting for the straw to break the camel's back here. They have found 25 underage mothers so far. I'm pretty sure that its not statutory rape when a 50 year old man has sex with a 16 year old girl. (And yes, I am aware that the original person who made the allegation has not been found, but please be assured that this kind of marriage is fairly commonplace among FLDS society. Again, read Escape or Under the Banner of Heaven.) That's just rape. What about when a man arranges the marriage of a 14 year old girl to her older cousin? I believe that's called incest. These 16 year old girls that are "married" are not necessarily married in the legal sense either. And 16 year old girls in Texas can be married with parental consent, but these marriages are always arranged by the parents in the first place. They are rarely, if ever, love matches.
I think its a misnomer to call these people "Mormons" because they most certainly are not part of mainstream Mormon society. The LDS church condemned polygamy 100 years old.
This isn't about religious persecution. It really is about the safety and well-being of these children.
I agree completely! My husband and I have been following this very closely and this situation is eerily like the Branch Dividians in Waco, TX. We all know what a disaster that turned out to be.
The only abuse we see here is the state abusing these people's liberties. Nothing good can come of it for any of us. Praying that these poor children are returned back to their mothers!
Hi Anne and Re4mdMom,
I'm not saying that abuse hasn't taken place, just that it hasn't been proven. If I'm wrong, and there is proof of abuse, please send me a link. I'd like to have accurate information here.
As far as I know, however, it has been 3 weeks and there has been no proof of any sort of abuse (besides what the children have endured emotionally during their separation from their parents). But I could be wrong.
Also, it sounds like they know who made the call impersonating the "young abused girl" and she is a 33 yo woman who has done this sort of thing before. There was no 16 yo girl. I gave a link in the article.
Again, I realize they are a cult. And if they are in fact abusing women and children there, then the law of the land should prevail; however, how can we justify rounding up over 400 children because some of them may be abused somewhere, according to a bogus, anonymous tip? Who is next?
Recently, I read about parents who are allowing children as young as 10 years old to have sex change operations. Others are allowing their teen daughters to have breast augmentations. To me, that is abuse (both physical and emotional). But I don't see anyone showing up on the doorsteps of these families with armed guards to take them away from their parents.
What they've basically communicated is that if you are part of this religious group, you're not allowed to have children.
This article http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24317685/ talks about how not all of the families in the sect practice polygamy. In fact, about half don't. One woman whose child was taken is a single mom!
I'm not defending abuse, but let's make sure it exists. We can't ruin lives on a hunch.
Thanks for the response, Mrs. McDonald (I apologize for the misspelling of your name in my last comment).
I have heard evidence of the abuse in the reports of those who have escaped. Right now, not much is being released since it is an ongoing investigation. But it says something to me that enough evidence has been found that the judge is okay with not returning the children yet.
Honestly, it's a difficult process. They've begun DNA testing because the women aren't being honest about whose children are whose. They're trying to avoid showing how many underage girls have had babies, but the truth is coming out. They've found 20 pregnant underage girls so far. And I guarantee that these are girls "married" to adult men.
"Again, I realize they are a cult. And if they are in fact abusing women and children there, then the law of the land should prevail; however, how can we justify rounding up over 400 children because some of them may be abused somewhere, according to a bogus, anonymous tip? Who is next?"
How can we not go in and round them up, when we know that many children are being abused, girls forced into marriage, and raped? This isn't a new problem. They've been getting the reports from escapees for years in FLDS compounds in Mexico, Canida, Utah, and Arizona.
Law enforcement has a duty to go in to protect everyone, and return the children when they are satisfied that they are safe. Just because it was an anonymous tip, even if it was a bogus tip, it's still true. Even if it wasn't happening to that girl, it IS happening to a good number of these kids and they have no one to talk to and no way out.
I share your disbelief at the things that parents are doing to their children in our society, and I support the police making sure that children are safe. But children in our world have an advantage over children in theirs. They have police, telephones, and other ways to get help. The children of the FLDS have no such avenues of protection.
I know this seems harsh, and I pray for the families to be reunited soon. But the situation in this compound was desperate for many children and they have to make sure that they're safe.
As far as the MSN article goes, I don't believe it. For the FLDS polygamy is required to get to heaven. They believe that Joseph Smith returned things to the way God wanted them to be, and living the Principle of Plural Marriage is a must. And if someone said that they were a single mother, it's probably legally true in that they're not legally married to the father, but single motherhood just doesn't happen there.
Most of these women, if they get their children back will go back to the compound with their children! They also know their children are being abused and continue to let it happen. I urge you to read the book escape by carolyn jessop
Hi Stacy!
I do appreciate you posting about this, because I think it is so healthy for us to discuss and remind ourselves (or even establish) where we stand as far as what our responsibilities are and where to draw lines.
I have been thinking about this post all day! Survivalmom posted after me about several of her family members who were married at various ages with large age gaps between each spouse. My own parents were 18 years apart, but they, like the people Survivalmom listed, I suspect, willing chose their partners. And even arranged marriages have their place. We have many Christian friends in India who support arranged marriages, and hearing their perspective I think it can be a good thing (although I am so blessed and grateful that God led me to my husband, who I was allowed to freely choose!)
It occured to me some of the biggest problems I see with the marriages of these young girls are, first, that they are taught to believe that their salvation is dependent upon their marriage to their husbands and they must comply and obediently marry the man they are given to, otherwise their salvation is at risk (they also are told that if they leave the compound/family/way of life, there is no way for them to enter heaven), and second that they are not given to any man in an arranged marriage thoughtfully planned out by loving family members who only want the best; they are put in to marriages with men who have other wives, with whom they must share his body and affection and attention, and with men who are often times their family members, either by blood or the other women he's married to. As Christians, we know these things aren't right, so should we really turn a blind eye for the sake of protecting our own citizen rights?
The other problem I have is we're saying that although we don't agree with their doctrines, the precedent the actions of the government may be setting is startling, but as Christians, should be be allowing them to continue to live in their own delusions, lies, and deception to save our own behinds from government impositions?
We have been blessed with a lifestyle in a country that was founded on the principles of freedom according to the innate value given every human being by our Creator. However, it is through Christ and in Christ and for Christ that we are free, regardless of the country we live in, the laws that govern our country, or the precedents that are being set as the Day draws nearer, the world grows darker and the Church becomes brighter.
I'm not saying we shouldn't stand up for our freedoms, but controlling the laws of our country for our own comfort and piece of mind shouldn't be our ultimate goal. We are free in Christ, whether our children are with us or torn from our arms, whether we are free to teach them the Truth or whether the government tries to dictate what we do and we have to whisper it in their ears as we lay on our beds at night. It is absolutely tragic that those children were taken from their mothers, I have cried about this. But who can understand every facet of God's bigger plan, for their lives and even possibly for our own years down the road?
I'm no fan of suffering! I'm not looking forward to it! But Jesus never promised we would live safely and securely in this world, in a country that provides for us with a government that protects us and cares for us. It would be ideal! But I don't think it's realistic as the time draws closer for God's kingdom to be established in it's fullness, on earth as in heaven, as the world "in all its turmoil and fitfulness" hates Him more and more, and those who are of Him as well.
The world (our government) will never fall in love with God, in fact the world hates God. The more I see news stories of terrorism and hate, wars, and now this sad story with these families, the more I am reminded that we are in Christ and for Christ first, not country or government or even our own selves. And that may mean loss of rights, punishment, even death. But that's what we are called to. We are just very, very unaccustomed to that way of thinking in our nation.
Believe me, I am not praying that the day is hastened! But I hope I won't be caught off guard by false expectations of a government that loves me and cares for me.
I earnestly pray that the day never comes when my beautiful daughter is torn from my arms, but should that day ever come, I have to trust that God is the Initiator and Pursuer, that He will chase after her all the days of her life, how ever that may work out practically through people and circumstances, and I will pray that her heart would burn for Him and she would be found in Him. It's in His strength and love, anyway, not mine, and not my country's.
One last thing, the accounts I have read of the women who left were from this specific compound/family. I think another poster mentioned one of them.
Because there are so many involved in this situation, it is taking more time than usual. I believe that we have to sit back watch and wait to learn the facts before we make a decision or conclusion in this situation. The authorities have not made their final findings. They have been up against road blocks because the members and older children have lied to the authorties. So far they have found 25 girls who were married and gave birth before 16. Because the authorities began their search on "good faith," anything they found as a result is admissible. This includes the "church" marriage record and the bed located off the sanctuary.
A community who outcasts their teen boys to make way for the old men (known as the Lost Boys) does not love their children. All of them anyway. "Breeding" your girls to advance a place in Heaven is sexual abuse. Read "Escape" The author was married against her will. This is their life.
Yes, I hate to see the state come in and disrupt homes and uproot families. But this may cause the women to leave. They are already receiving state aid, foodstamps, welfare, because they apply as single mothers. Their marriage (second wife on) is not recorded by the state. That is how they can receive so much aid. My point is, it would not take much more for them to make it on their own.
My prayer is that the women will leave this compound. Then I believe the state would return their children
Ruth, PA
I too am concerned about the precedence this may set. It just might open the door to harm many of us: especially those of us with larger then average families that homeschool, try to keep cultural influences to a minimum, and are training daughters to be keepers of the home. I am thankful that God holds all of this in his hands.
I'm wondering about these books that people keep referring to - the ones where the disgruntled ex-members wrote about the abuse they went through.
It just doesn't seem like a very reliable source. I'm not saying they didn't go through what they say, but it certainly shouldn't be considered proven evidence. It's just a testimony - true or false. Anyone can write a book.
It just seems like if what these ex-members claim is true, we'd be hearing more about it from some of the women in custody now - at least one. So far, that hasn't happened. No abuse, no forced marriages, no rape. We can't go on hearsay - our judicial system doesn't work that way - or isn't supposed to.
I think this is more an issue of Constitutional rights than anything. As weird as they may be, they have a right to be weird. As long as they haven't committed any crime. And that has yet to be claimed or proven.
I agree with you, Stacy, about this being a dangerous precedent. Whether I agree with their beliefs or not, my heart goes out to these mothers and their children. They must be devastated at the moment.
One of the frustrations I have with this, as I was speaking with my husband yesterday, is that the secular world says that "children" should be allowed to make their own decisions regarding sexual relations - we see this in the "health education", the free contraceptives, the assistance for abortion, etc. Parents are many times told that it is none of their business. I see teenagers as young as 13 pregnant in our communities, and those are only the ones that haven't been cooerced into having an abortion. I do not see authorities stepping in and taking these children away from their parents - I do not see the children of these children being taken away either. I suppose they are considered "mistakes" that were made in the pursuit of sexual freedom. Therefore, no problem. However, let a young girl get married young and have children intentionally because of her religious beliefs (whether we agree or not) and she is now being abused and accused of abusing her children. I have a real problem with this.
The authorities don't like the fact that these girls and their children are being brought up to marry and have children. What if one day the authorities don't like that I am raising my children to believe that a woman's place is at home with her children and that it is the husband's place to protect and provide for them? Will that one day be considered "abuse"? Many that I have spoken with already believe that it is. Does that give the government the right to come in and take my children because they don't agree with the belief system I am teaching my children? Many people teach their children that having children overpopulates the world. That is their belief and although I believe them to be erroneous in that belief, it is their right. This could be applied to any set of beliefs that parents have. Should the government have the right to pull children from a home because of what may or may not be "politically correct" at the moment? "Psychological" abuse does exist, but it is a dangerous ground to walk on. Many consider teaching children that the Bible is Truth as pyscholical abuse. This whole situation does set a very dangerous precedent.
I sincerely hope that there is no actual abuse occurring. Sometimes even the word abuse is relative, though. By our modern standards, I would guess that most children in the past were abused (said light heartedly with a smile).You can't lump in a whole group together because of what you assume about a few. Some homeschoolers do things that are wrong, should we all be assumed guilty? Some Christians do wrong things, should we all be assumed guilty? I believe this is a gross abuse of power on the side of the state. I ache for these families and I hope that it will soon be resolved. The whole DNA testing that is going on has me sick - what if they "discover" that a child was born to an underage mother? When did it become a crime to give birth to a child before a certain age? I don't know, the implications of this whole situation really have me concerned. And I am rambling now (smile).
Thank you Stacy for this post and your others. I love reading your blog, although this is the first time I have responded.
Blessings!
I have had many concerns about this as well.
I definately do not share any views with this cult, but the ease with which they were able to come in and take these children away is scary. Also that part of what they consider abuse is wide ranging, including they way they educate and dress their kids.
Thanks for sharing this topic, Mrs. McDonald. It is a difficult one, yet baring REAL abuse, these parents have the right in AMERICA to raise their children as they see fit, even if we do not agree with them.
Amen, Mrs. McDonald! You're absolutely right, and to tell you the truth, this post was very eye-opening and informative. All I had known about the polygamist raid was what I've been following in our local newspaper. The gentleman you quoted was very helpful and informative. This raid was indeed uncalled for. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm against Mormonism due to the false doctrines, and that I'm obviously against polygamy. But what you said is EXACTLY right, and I want to thank you for taking the time to post this. It is very, very scary to think that the real reason(s) behind the raid is because the State doesn't like females being feminine, the teachings on a woman's high calling, etc. If the State is pulling things like this already and is covering it up as being due to abuse and abuse calls, then this is really scary for those of us who are wholeheartedly dedicated to homeschooling, Biblical family life, and the roles for men and women as taught in the Holy Scriptures. May the Lord help us and this nation!
Have a blessed day, Mrs. McDonald!
In Christ alone,
Rebekah Ann, age 15
www.byhisgraceandforhisglory.blogspot.com
Hi Stacey,
I agree with what you've written. This case is just unbelievable and that people would defend the state just boggles my mind.
The primary problem I see here is that the state believes that they have a primary right to determine the upbringing of children that supercedes that of the parents. The state believes that it is the states own privilage to decide who will be allowed to raise their children or not based upon their own whims.
The question I have, Stacey, is what can we as parents do to stop this? How can we establish as the law of the land that parents have the primary right to raise their children? I've noticed even in your commentators remarks that there are several who believe the state should be the family's watch dogs.
I believe that the Lord teaches parents are to raise their own children. I see no precedence for a government to take over the childrearing functions of the family as the government of this nation does.
How do we counteract this?
~ Beth West
Mrs. Varney said, "However, let a young girl get married young and have children intentionally because of her religious beliefs..."
The problem with this is no one knows if these are actually the religious beliefs of many of these girls. I give credit to Jesus and Jesus alone for my salvation. But the way that I live my life from day to day, is in fact MY CHOICE, and doesn't necessarily line up with that of other believers in the faith. I wonder if these girls are given the time to make the choice of how they live their lives.
I'm not entirely sure what has happend here, but I do know that Warren Jeffs being the esteemed prophet of this particular movement doesn't help. I also know that their remarkable isolation from the rest of society only adds to the speculation about this group. I'm not saying that they should expose their kids to what "the world" deems acceptable, but I am saying that being sectioned off where virtually no one goes in, raises my suspicion.
Apart from that CPS have a habit of sending many children back home when they know they are sending them home to dangerous situations. This case seems unusual and drastic to me, so my hope is that there is great reason for it. But the system is never perfect. It doesn't belong to the Lord and neither does our society.
As far as the precedence this sets, where is the line drawn even with that? I do agree with whoever said, that our job as believers is not to fear the world and what might come at us, but to cling firmly to Christ knowing that He alone is sovereign and the ultimate authority over all. There is nothing that escapes His notice, or catches Him by surprise. He is our Source and our Shield. I won't live my life afraid that my rights might be taken away. Especially when I have a Lord that willingly left his behind.
That being said, Mrs. McDonald, I thoroughly enjoy your blog and have been very blessed by it. Thank you for your very thoughtful and encouraging posts.
Dear Stacy,
I feel you concern and your mother's heart is like mine -- deeply in pain for the children involved.
I read thru the comments and your original post and I just wanted to take a moment and share .....
After 19 yrs in the Mormon Church, I accepted Christ as my personal Lord & Savior and became a born again believer.
May I just say out of all due respect --- the FLDS is a cult. The women & children are brainwashed. I personally know of women who were raised in polygamist communities, FLDS and others. Their storeis are tragic.
Ladies - there is abuse going on.... sexual abuse of children is rampant. It is not as you think or as you see on the news! Please, realize that unless you have actually been in the bondage of a cult you may not understand the depth of what actually happens.
THese women -- they will not speak out.. they can not.... it is impossible for them to do so.... they have taken oaths to protect their church and their leaders. The children have been brainwashed and taught that they are to lie to authorities. THis is done all in the name of "lying for the Lord". It is awful and it needs to be stopped.
I do feel sorry for the children -- but if they continue in this group they will grow up and continue the cycle.
Ladies, unless you have expierenced being brainwashed you may not understand the level of secrecy that is going on behind closed doors.
Please do not be fooled by their "wholesome appearance". It is not what you think it is. A good friend of mine escaped a group like this when she was 15 -- the girl's are matched with older men. Ladies, it is awful!
We are not fighting against the flesh but against principalities and powers and , against rulers of the darkness of this world, against "spiritual wickedness". Ephesians 6:12
What the FLDS are doing is spiritual wickedness. The children need to be protected. THe men place the women on TV and on the camera - but they do not show themselves.
Ladies, please realize that this is a cult, this is not a sweet group of wholesome folks living in the countryside. The things that are done behind closed doors - oh ladies.... you would cringe.
I feel awfully for the children - but how does one protect them when their parents and church are not healthy or safe?
As I mentioned, although I was not involed with groups like these I am a former mormon ( 19 plus years) and I am telling you , it is not what you think it is -- the TV and media are not showing what is happening behind the doors.
There IS sexual abuse in these communities, and children are molested. Girls are being givent old men to mary and birth families with. It is not the model of freedom in Christ.
I applaud Texas for doing what the state of Utah has refused to do for years and years. These groups need to be broken up for the safety of the children.
Oh, if you could only sit with these women who grew up in these communities and hear their stories! For the most part they don't come out and speak... and why is that?? They are told and taught that if they do speak out, their blood must spill. Some of these groups practice "blood atonement".... that is if a women or man reveals what is really going on they can only be forgiven if they shed their own blood. ( That was taught by Brigham Young and FLDS follow his teachings) .
These groups operate out of FEAR... if they reveal what is really going on they risk everything... they are told that if they leave their church they will lose their salvation. The women and children are NOT going to admit there is abuse going on!!! They have been sworn to not reveal.
Please ladies, as a former mormon, I am telling you it is not what you think. It is much worse. The best thing for these children is to be removed. The men should be incarcerated.
Stacy -- I know you are deeply concerned, as we should all be united in prayer for these precious children.
In His love,
gloria
I think it is a little confusing that a government who is willing to hand out birth control to Jr High kids is appalled at the thought of 16 year olds being married to older men.
Stacy, I must admit I was shocked when I saw this article. I was deathly afraid of what exactly was going to be said in this blog. Then, upon reading the blog, I was vastly relieved and saw that your intention here is simply (as usual) to give good common sense. You're right, true evidence MUST be found. Otherwise, God only knows what doors could be opened. We Americans pride ourselves on "innocent until proven guilty" and "freedom of religion". If we're going to carry these badges, we sure better continue to earn them.
Having said that, I find this cult to be far more dangerous than the government's actions. From what I have seen, the women in these groups are little better than Christianized concubines; God only knows what horrid lies they've been told in order to be persuaded to share a life partner with other women. The men don't even pretend to be married to these women; what they have is widespread group fornication. Most of the children taken are virtually fatherless and DNA tests are being taken to determine who was fathered by who. Satan is the author of confusion and chaos, and I'd call this cultic group the most confused, uprooted and chaotic version of God's family model that I've ever seen.
I could not agree more with the lady here who said the mothers are not protecting their children and the fathers are not loving their "wives" or children. Basically, in this cult, we have as good as wicked men and utterly deceived women raising children; hardly good role models. It's been a belief of mine that twisted Christianity is worse than no Christianity at all; I may or may not be right, but this seems to be a classic case of that. What government could leave children with men who give women no value at all and women who know nothing better than to embrace such a lifestyle? The government just couldn't take any chances, I think; not when there are children involved. Not even emotionally shattered mothers should stop anyone from protecting children. I know that some of you ladies are speaking out of sympathy and emotional pain for the mothers. However, in this case emotions have to be secondary and facts have to prevail, and the facts are that the children are being raised in a spiritually dangerous or even deadly environment. The mothers may love and weep, but they don't know how to raise or protect their children and in the long-run leaving these children in spiritual rot would be far more harmful to them then tugging them from emotionally harmful parents.
If the mothers are heartbroken, perhaps this will be a wake-up call to them. I pray that they will love their children more than the false doctrine their husbands have been feeding them.
As usual, though, all we're seeing is the women from the group. As deprived as they may be, they are the backbone of the religion: marching in front of the cameras, courthouses, and fearessly sharing their stories with the world, while the men hide at home. I think it's easy to tell who the strong ones in the group are (though I can't blame the young influential men in the group anymore than the women, really). May their strength carry them and their precious babies out of this sect's shadow and into God's truth.
Just to respond to a couple of other comments:
"How in the world do you prove someone is under the "mind control" of a cult if they tell you they're not and there's no visible harm being done?"
I've been listening to the spiritual harm. I remember one sweet but vacant-eyed woman being interviewed and implying that she may or may not be sharing a man with other women. The Bible calls this polygamy, adultery, fornication; she called it sacred. This sweet and beautiful lady had no idea what it was like to be sacredly bound as one woman to one man, as a partner and heir in grace with him; she didn't even know she had a right to this.
"I think it is a little confusing that a government who is willing to hand out birth control to Jr High kids is appalled at the thought of 16 year olds being married to older men."
Marriage binds spiritually, legally, and emotionally. Fornication is a big mistake, but unlike marriage, it doesn't permanently lock two children together. The government wants to prevent ignorant and sexually active children from getting pregnant, so naturally it wouldn't support the idea of such children binding themselves permanently to adults. Besides, certain state laws aside, most people view 16-year-olds as children and hold older men in contempt for wanting them instead of fully grown women.
As for the fact that 12-year-olds used to get married, all I can say is that it's a miracle they got through it. How sad!
Thank you again, Stacy, for calling for solid logic and justice in the midst of emotion. I'm sorry I even for a moment worried about this blog; I should have known better by now :) This has just been such an awful matter, all the way around, that the mention of it alone makes me wary. Thank you also for being open-minded enough to listen thoroughly to everyone here; that's one of the things I've admired most about you and it's a crucial ingredient to being a Christian that I'm still slowly learning to muster.
"Instead the allegation (in court, at least) is that they're teaching their kids that a woman's highest calling is giving birth and raising children and that it's acceptable to get married at an early age"
No, Henson; that's what conservative Christians teach. Mormon cults teach that women are made to share one man with many, with no sacred, legal, Biblical, or binding oath. That their bodies are so impure, they should be covered from head to toe every day, that grown men are meant to marry children if necessary (regardless of whether said children truly want this), that child-bearing is a female's duty (rather than joy) and is performed for a man who does not even give her the promise of monogamy and holy commitment to her alone, and that God's Word is optional and easily manipulated. That is what the cult teaches. To the secular world, this is a grave charge indeed; to God, it is, most likely, nigh unfathomable.
Just so it's stated for the record...
this is NOT mainstream Mormonism (Latter-Day Saints). Many of my best friends are LDS, and they hate the way this cult makes them look to the world, and the questions they get asked.
I also feel that not all the facts are given out to the public about this case. Many times, the authorities have been keeping an eye on a certain group for a long period of time. When someone calls in a tip, it's what they've been waiting for...and they go in and take the kids away. It's not always our place to know everything, obviously. I wouldn't want everyone knowing everything about my business, either.
I would also like to remind everyone that polygamy IS illegal. Arrests made for that purpose alone would be a good thing. If someone is married to their uncle, an arrest would be a good thing. If that person happens to be 15 years old, that's a good thing too.
Leanne, you said
"It just seems like if what these ex-members claim is true, we'd be hearing more about it from some of the women in custody now - at least one. So far, that hasn't happened. No abuse, no forced marriages, no rape."
However, these women have been raised, at least for two generations, probably more, to believe that their own salvation relies solely upon their obedience and faithfulness to the husbands they were given to, and to this sect. They are taught (and not just taught but drilled in to) that any complaint or thing said that is contrary to what they have been taught makes them immoral, disobedient and that is grounds for discipline (not just a talking to but isolation, rejection, being ostracized and affection and provision from their husbands and the rest of their sister wives being taken away from them and their children. I really don't think they are going to speak up against all this. They are probably incredibly confused right now as their paradigms are being rocked right out of place as everything they've ever known and been taught (with much emphasis placed on their obedience and faith in what their taught being their ticket to heaven) collides with the outside world and media invading their lives. Even if they are being abused, they probably feel like they're swimming in confusion and uncertainty and trying to get a foothold. I don't think it's very likely they will speak out, at least not immediately. They may feel that something is not quite right with their lifestyle or even be fully aware with the conscience that God has given them that the way they are being treated and used is not right but, at the least, it's what they've known, what's familiar to them and what they can rely on and can expect to always tell them what they've always heard.
In such unsettling turmoil, who wouldn't long for the familiar and hesitate to say something that would ensure that that familiar would likely never be obtainable again? That's pretty frightening. That doesn't mean that the children haven't been mistreated, the mothers haven't allowed in, and the men haven't dictated and enforced it.
And a few posters keep commenting that the authorities are up in arms about women and young girls having the right to marry and bear children. I really don't think those are the issues. To be frank, it seems like those are the things *you* (those with this opinion) fear in their own life, which makes it easy to make a connection between this event and the possibility of it happening in your own life. I personally don't feel that is very likely, I truly believe that this cult has been breaking the law, taking advantage of and intimidating its members, mistreating and controlling them for their own sick and sad power trips (thank you, by the way, for those who have mentioned the Lost Boys - those teenage boys who are seen as competition to old men and kicked out of the compound with no skills, education or contacts, let alone any means of securing shelter or food).
It continues to be said that we disagree with their doctrines, even that we know this lifestyle is not what the Bible has laid out - so where is the problem, then? It is a fear of a loss of our own personal and citizen rights. But the Kingdom of God is not about personal rights - quite the opposite. Our rights as citizens of God's Kingdom is that we get to share in Christ's sufferings. Yes, what a blessed country we live in, with wonderful freedom that, at least when the country was founded, was established because of the value we see in every human being. But America is not the Kingdom of God, and as wonderful as our freedoms have been, there has never been any guarantee from God that they would last. We absolutely should pray for our leaders, for those who make laws and bills, for those who enforce them. But I think it is incredibly crucial that we are very real with ourselves that as relativism increases, as the world rebels harder and faster against God, our personal rights will be infringed upon - because relativism is chaos and with no absolutes, no one is immune to having inherent rights tread upon and even restricted. Is it ok? No. But is God still sovereign? Do we still long to serve Him, love Him, worship Him, in freedom and in persecution? In safety and threat?
Is the solution to do everything possible to ensure that every elected official from the secretary to the president be a Christian to rule the land according to God's standard? Wouldn't that be a cult on a grander scale? Is God's Kingdom increased or supported only as long as our personal freedoms are intact?
God's Kingdom stands alone and survives alone because He existed before all and is in all, not because we have Godly leaders and freedom to worship in the way we choose. We know our hearts can worship Him even if our tongues are cut out. Christians in countries all over the world know this full-well. If we keep hoping for America to be a Christian utopia, we are hoping in the wrong thing. If we simply long for the freedom to worship as we please, the line will be drawn somewhere. And as I recall, the Church actually grew exponentially when the disciples were persecuted and scattered throughout the world. And, many of them lost their lives.
As long as the kingdom of this world is still in place, even as God's Kingdom is present and being established, the Church will never be able to worship in complete freedom. Someone, somewhere, will be persecuted, and Christ told us to expect this, not to fight it and ensure our own personal safety and happiness. We may have been able to worship fairly freely for several decades in this country, but I don't want to be deceived into believing it will last until the Kingdom comes in its fullness.
Sorry it has taken me so long to respond again. It is nice to see a polite discussion about this.
I understand that in Texas a girl can marry at 16. The problem has been reported that there are young women of this age AND younger who have borne children already. That would mean they had sexual relations before they were 16 years old. Thus the sexual abuse.
I believe the mothers were separated from the children because the children would not speak with authorities and the authorities felt that the children could not answer truthfully with the mothers present. If there was sexual abuse at the compound involving any number of children, the mothers were also responsible as they did not protect their daughters. I don't know if that is actually a crime that can be prosecuted (perhaps criminal negligence??). And because the children and mothers would not say who belonged to who, the authorities had no recourse but to separate all the mothers.
I believe all the children were taken from the compound for their own protection until all of this is settled. Hopefully the DNA evidence will answer a lot of questions.
Is the state perfect in how they are handling this? No but I don't see how they can be perfect. I believe they are doing the best that they can do given the large number of children involved.
When I said we have nothing to worry about, I meant that with our faith in Christ, we can trust that all things work for His glory. We need not live in fear.
Just a couple of thoughts came to my mind: 1. Besides the polygamy issue, wouldn't Amish families be in the same danger of being abused by the system? 2. If a man decided to sleep with 10 women and have children by all of them without being married to any of them, I seriously doubt if the government would bat an eye.
I just wanted to write in response to amy's post ..... she mentioned that these folks at the FLDS compound are not mainstream mormons. She is right - they are not, but I would like to point out to amy and those reading Stacy's Blog that the roots of The FLDS are the same as the roots or beginnings of Mainstream Mormons ( they like to be called LDS) .
In fact, I believer FLDS are the "true or pure" mormons here - in the sense that they follow and adhere closely to the teachings of J. Smith and B. Young and early mormon leaders , who by the way publically stated that plural marriage was a "requirement" to live with God again. Mainstream mormons have distanced themself from these leaders and their teachings, although belive me they still claim them to be "Inspired" by god.
Warren Jeffs is truly a modern day J.Smith in many regards.
As I mentioned earlier, I am a former LDS ( mainstream mormon) and was saved last year! PTL!! Although mormons do not live plural marriage -- they certainly do believe in it theologically. ( they believe many will live it in heaven and that "god" himself & Jesus are polygamist.)
Yes, the mainstream Mormons are not the FLDS - but people should be aware that mainstream LDS do believe that the practice of plural marriage is instituted by god. ( ie; "their god")
Just wanted to clear that up.
Blessings,
gloria
Simply Heart, thank you for your valuable info! It seems I'm missing a few details. Let me see if I've got this straight: the children refused to answer questions, there has been solid evidence of underaged girls being pregnant in the cult, and the government removed the children because they wouldn't give any information and neither they nor the mothers would even tell the police the paternity information? Just making sure I'm caught up on the facts! Thanks
Most of the time when a story like this breaks on the mainstream news, I am instantly suspicious of the information being given out. News media in Canada is so liberal it is completely unreliable for truth - perhaps this is also true in the U.S. And the danger to situations such as this Texas story is that the media will paint all 'religious' groups with the same brush - "If you are different in your lifestyle, there is probably something wrong with you."
My input to this discussion is personal. Many years ago, my family was assaulted by CPS (or, as they laughingly refer to themselves here, Family, Youth and Children Services). A member of my family called this agency and expressed her 'concern' about how my daughter is being raised - specifically, being raised with biblical standards, homeschooling and encouraged toward being a SAHM in her future. This one call from someone with a different opinion about MY CHILD's upbringing sent our family into months spent fighting for the right to raise her as we see fit.
I was accused of being a brainwashed wife (which instantly negated anything I had to say), my husband was accused of being 'emotionally abusive' to his family and my local Baptist church was accused of being 'cult-ish'. All innuendo, all liberalized opinion, all lies.
Now, how many of you reading this are thinking we must have done something wrong to warrant a government investigation into our family? We simply live out the convictions we have in God's word - can I say we are normal Baptists to get my point across? But the we were guilty until proven innocent.
In Canada 'child protection' agencies can show up at your door and take your children without explanation. They can drag out bogus accusations as long as it suits their cause (the cause to validate their own existence) and have little to no desire to help families. They are exonerated from ever having to explain their actions. Total power to do as they wish. It is a frightening realization - a realization that leads me to prayer regularly!
Could there be sexual, physical and psychological abuse happening in this Texas sect? Yes, of course it is possible.
Could there be a group of government employees with a sick superiority complex and hatred for anything 'religious', Mormon, Jehovah Witness, or Christian? Absolutely.
The whole truth will likely never be known to those outside of the situation. I agree with you, Mrs. McDonald, in that we need to pray for all those involved - and then leave it in the Lord's hands. The offenders will answer to Him eventually.
Jennifer - No, those aren't the "facts" - at least not yet. As far as I know, those things have not been confirmed. That's the point; nobody has proven any abuse. If it's proven, then that's one thing, but so far the rumors have been flying and people are guilty until proven innocent.
Maybe, like some have said, there is more that hasn't been disclosed; but, so far, to me, it looks like a government on overkill - a government trampling the rights of the innocent to find the guilty.
I'm sure if the government "raided" certain likely neighborhoods in large cities and removed all the children and mothers from their homes, they would find all sorts of drugs, prostitution, abuse, child molestation, and rape going on. No doubt in my mind. But do we tramble the rights of everyone to find them? That's not the way our government is supposed to work.
If they suspect abuse, they should have reasonable proof: the name of the abuser, and the testimony of the one claiming abuse or claiming to have seen the abuse. And to place the abusees in custody under duress and leave the supposed abusers free is just wild.
Kim - thank you for sharing your story. Praise God He has been your strength! We'll continue to pray that these families will soon know that same strength - may He pursue each one of them until they know and embrace a loving and true Savior. Like Father Hollywood (www.fatherhollywood.blogspot.com) recently said, "Please pray for those hundreds of children caught between the pincers of false religion and the nanny state."
And Gloria - thank you for pointing out that even mainstream LDS is a cult. Yes, whether or not the mainstream group is obedient to all of Joseph Smith's teachings, they all need freedom from the deception of false religion.
Stacy,
Thank you for posting about this and sharing the links. My husband and I are also very concerned about the precedent this is setting.
This situation reminded me of an incident that occurred earlier this year. A 10 year old boy in Colorado fell outside and hit his head during horseplay. A helpful neighbor called 911. When the paramedics arrived, they recommended taking him to the hospital, but the family declined, preferring to watch for signs of a problem at home instead. The disgruntled paramedics reported this, and later that night, a SWAT team invaded the home, terrorized the entire family at gunpoint(they are homeschoolers with 5 other children), and took the boy to the hospital. Read the full story here:
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59566
This boy was taken from his home because the state disagreed with his parents' decisions about his health. They essentially determined that he was being "neglected", and that it was their job to step in and "fix" the situation. What a terrible violation of this family's rights and privacy!
Once it becomes acceptable for the state to invade citizens' privacy and raid their homes, it will be done for any reason, all reasons, and sometimes for no reason at all. I agree with those who say that we don't need to fear--that we belong to the Lord and that He will care for us. But I also think it is prudent to discern the times in which we live, so that we know how to pray, how to help others, and what actions we should be taking to keep our country free. I think the Lord wants us to fight injustice as part of our Christian witness. We want to be "wise as serpents and gentle as doves"... We don't want to be unaware, and discussing topics such as this one is very important as we navigate the difficult days that may be ahead for our country.
Keep up the good work, Stacy!
I am the mother of two children who were - rightly - removed from their biological parents, cared for by the state and placed for adoption. So I have seen the terrible harm on children of being removed from their mothers/main carer and handed over to others. Even when our children moved from their foster carers to us after a period of getting to know us over a week, their distress and grief were evident, especially in retrospect now that we know them better.
I feel so sick imagining the grief and loss of the tiny children, who are also enduring the forced weaning process in the absence of their mothers.
Beth, while the raid of a house and family was horrid, I do believe the police had the right to take the boy to the hospital. I've heard of the horrid consequences that have happened when seemingly unimportant injuries were ignored. Unless those parents were doctors, they had no business acting as such; most "signs" are recognized too late.
Stacy
I am overwhelmed by the response to this post. Surely everyone who knows of this incident has been touched deeply by it. There are so many good points.
When I read your entry it brought me to tears. How great must be our Lord's grief for these innocent victim's. Whether or not there was abuse, (of which is horrible to imagine). The greatest victim's are the children. The adults can reason it out and comfort one another, but these children are being thrust out into strange homes. Your mother's heart on behalf of these children and their mom's is evident.
When my daughter had her second child a year ago, I had her first son overnight, and I'm his "Nona". He woke crying and frightened, even though he was surrounded by a loving family of his own.
I remember thinking when I first heard of this incident, what are they thinking, removing these children from perfectly safe mothers. Why not remove the men. They are obviously the one's who have broken the law on polygamy. Then the mother's could have taken care of the children themselves. While things were investigated.
True to form when the government steps in - chaos. Why burden the foster parent system. But as Ronald Reagan once said "The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."
In light of having given it thought, it is amazing to me the far reaching results of sin in our lives and the lives of those whom our life touches. This practice of polygamy is sinful and selfish. It not only touched the lives of all of these women, but young men, children, babes, and even the future of families concerning government intervention,just as you said.
It gives an entire new meditation to Romans 5:12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
Oh, the horrible ripple effect of our sin.
Our prayers are needed for all those involved here, for who can straighten this out without there being sad consequences in the end.
Thank you for this post, and for all the links that are included.
God bless, & be refreshed.
Thanks so much for this post!
I have been disturbed about this as well. It is not that I think it is a great idea to marry at 16, or to be married off to a 49 year old - worry about the removal of children is unrelated to agreement with the specific beliefs of this group.
I've been thinking that the response to child abuse should be to press criminal charges against the perpetrators. If there are no charges that can be pressed, then there is not a case!
The reason there is not more uproar about this case is that these people are so "other" to us - they are so different, so wrong, and we dislike their lifestyle so much, that many feel like it is fine to take the children simply on that basis. As Stacy has written, that is not an acceptable reason!
I also think our society is very good at holding the view that certain beliefs and ways are living are abusive, while ignoring the fact that widespread "ordinary" ways of living may also be harmful to children.
Stacy, I don't have time to read all comments, but if it hasn't been posted yet, The Headmistress at The Common Room has posted several times on this, updating as more news comes out. I too, have lost sleep imagining the horror these mothers and babies and children are facing (while any perpetrators have been free to come and go). When will this stop? When will justice be found here?
Please don't consider these people to be Mormon. Their beliefs are not the same as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. They have taken the extreme on every account and then even farther than that.
As an LDS mother of three myself, I too am extremely saddened by the whole situation. I don't agree with their way of life. But, I don't believe that the Texas authorities have handled this well either.
I pray for the children.
Laura
First these people then any christian will come under attack, just like the jews in the holocausts.
I wasn't sure if you all were aware of the news that was just recently released. Here is the link and the article.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D90B2K480&show_article=1
Officials: 31 of 53 girls from sect ranch have been pregnant
SAN ANTONIO (AP) - Texas child welfare officials say more than half the teen girls swept into state custody from a polygamist sect's ranch have been pregnant.
Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.
State officials took custody of all 463 children at the Yearning For Zion Ranch more than three weeks ago after a raid prompted by calls to a domestic violence hotline.
Child welfare officials say there was a pattern of underage girls forced into "spiritual marriages" with much older men at the ranch.
~~~~~~~~~~
Jennifer,
You did not understand what I wrote. I'll try to explain it more clearly. The children were removed from the compound because the authorities felt that they were in danger. It was NOT because they were not talking to the authorities.
I said that one reason the mothers were separated from their children AFTER they had left the compound was because the authorities felt the children could not speak truthfully to them in front of the mothers.
Stacey,
I hope that these facts put to rest that there was indeed sexual abuse in the compound.
And I believe that in the state of Texas there does NOT have to be proof of sexual abuse for a child to be removed from a home. There just has to be a complaint made. The authorities then go in and access the complaint. If they find the complaint is warranted then they have every right to go in and remove the child. It then goes through the court system for the judge to decide whether the child can be returned immediately or held longer in protection.
That is exactly what happened at the compound. There does not have to be "proof" as you call it.
Thanks for the link, Ella. I encourage everyone to go read what The Headmistress at The Common Room has to say. Here's a portion:
"Let's look at the CPS claim again:
Two teenage girls are pregnant, and although identities and ages have been difficult to nail down, CPS officials say no more than 30 minor girls in state custody have children. It's not clear how many other adolescent girls may be among the children shipped to foster facilities.
You have to admire the way the CPS officials use weasel words- 'no more than 30 minor girls have children...' could mean anything from 1 to 30. I'd like to know which it is, and why they're being so coy about hard numbers.
Here's an another offical statement from CPS:
CPS identified 20 minors and young adult women with children who were impregnated between the ages of 13-16.
So Azar is either a liar or he can't count. And the reports yesterday about discovering 25 minor girls who were mothers frankly don't add up with other numbers CPS officials are publicizing. Why are we getting such contradictory information from CPS?
Just a reminder to those who can't seem to follow this- I have never said there are no under-aged girls being abused or who have children or are pregnant. I have said CPS is doing a pretty poor job of proving it, and that parents ought to be considered innocent until proven guilty.
I have even said, at times, that I would not be shocked to learn that there probably are such cases. I have consistently said that I want to see guilty parties in those cases charged and put behind bars in order to punish them and protect other under-aged girls- and one of my biggest problems with this case is that CPS has pretty much made it highly unlikely that this will ever happen. They've given the perpetrators three weeks to see which way the wind is blowing, it's highly unlikely that they've waited around in Eldorado for law enforcement to send them an engraved invitation to go to jail. But if CPS officials cannot even agree with each other about how many minor girls in their custody have children or are pregnant, it seems obvious that the evidence they insist they have cannot be as compelling as they are presenting it to be.
*How IS CPS determining ages? I do not know. While the media is passing on the canard that none of these people have birth certificates and other forms of identification, that's not what came out in the hearing. There, the judge said their birth certificates and other I.D. were not adequate:
"During the hearing, attorneys for parents and children said they had certified birth certificates, social security numbers, Texas drivers licenses and even tax returns that could be used to validate names and ages.
But Voss said the documents would not be acceptable, suggesting some certificates might be forged.
And Judge Barbara Walther agreed.
''How do you know, in today's world of identity theft, a birth certificate is proof of who they are?'' the judge asked.
Attorney Stephanie Goodman asked Voss whether a certified birth certificate would be acceptable proof for her client.
''I can't say that it wouldn't be,'' Voss said. But she also could not say it would be.
Instead, Texas will use DNA samples to link mothers and fathers to their children."
One problem- DNA does not determine age. And if CPS isn't accepting these documents, how are they ascertaining the girls' ages? Dental records? Fortunate telling? Tea leaf reading? Taking their word for it if they claim to be under 18 while calling them liars if they say they are adults?"
In response to the response made by the LDS ( mormon) mom Laura,
I understand that the FLDS are not mainstream mormons -- but it is *true* that the roots are one in the same. Not only that, mainstream mormons today teach that god - their "god" has many wives. Mainstream mormon practice plural marriage "theologically"... that is a mormon man is allowed to be married again in the mormon temple to more than one wife ( if his first wife died). Thus, it is true fact that mainstream mormons do embrace the idea of plural marriage. The Mainstream mormon church teaches that a mormon man can have many wives in heaven. Their doctrinal books teach that this is "holy" ( Doctrine & Covenants LDS scripture).
So although, the FLDS are really under the spotlight right now, the mainstream Salt Lake City church will of course receive lots of scrutiny. Their foundation stone is the same - Joseph Smith.
I encourage all LDS readers of stacy's blog to examine the teachings of early mormon leaders. You will soon realize it really is exactly what the FLDS teach and live. There is hope in Jesus Christ and in the true message of salvaiton found in the Bible today.
Blessings,
gloria
former LDS
Hi Gina,
Thanks for the link. I haven't read it yet, but I will get to it in a few minutes.
Real quick, I just want to make it clear - I completely support a full measure of punishment for those who have in fact abused or raped women or children in that compound. If there has been physical harm, sexual abuse, or forced marriages within the compound, I do pray that God uses this to rescue the helpless and convict the guilty.
Like I said earlier, I don't doubt that some of these men have been abusive. They're not Christians and they're part of a wicked cult. But let's make sure we punish only the guilty.
Again, the point isn't whether or not abuse is wicked (we know it is), whether or not the cult is evil (this is true), or even if we should or shouldn't allow the abuse (when we know about it we should act); the point IS whether or not the government should trample the rights of the innocent to get to the guilty.
There was NO proof that every mother and child that was removed from the compound was being abused. Yet every mother and child was taken. Eventually, even nursing babies over 12 months old were separated from their mothers - cold turkey. Only nursing infants under 12 months old were kept with their mothers. All the infants were immunized without parental consent.
While I greive for the mothers, I greive more for the traumatized little ones. If their mothers were causing them immediate danger, that would have been one thing - but we know that's not true, and nobody is even claiming that was the case. They punished the whole crowd while they searched for the guilty. All from an anonymous tip that turned out to be bogus.
Again, I appreciate what so many of you have said regarding God's using this for His glory. I completely agree and pray that God will use this to reveal Himself to these poor deceived people.
I just stumbled across your blog and though I appreciate what you are trying to do, I have to ask that you please get your facts straight. This situation in Texas has nothing to do with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) The Fundamentalists broke away long ago and do not share the same views as actual LDS members. For you to make any blanket statement about "mormon beliefs" is irresponsible. You should do a little more checking before you post hurtful, damaging and incorrect information.
Thank you for my post. I was just having a coversation with a good friend last week along these lines. It's heartbreaking for these moms and children and bone chilling to see how quickly the state can take children away when they disagree with how they're being brought up (esp. since we homeschool, which I know not everyone agrees with).
Simply Heart and Home,
You say, "I hope that these facts put to rest that there was indeed sexual abuse in the compound."
You seem to be referring to Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar's claim that 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado and that of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.
I am hesitant to call this claim a fact since there is little evidence that it is true. These numbers are based on ignoring the women's claims about their ages and their birth certificates. Instead CPS has assigned ages to the women based on their appearance. Since people who do not smoke, wear makeup or eat junk food do not age at the same rate as those who do, appearance is a very unreliable means to determine age. It does however have a great advantage for CPS in that it justifies their actions.
As I understand the law, children may only be removed from families when they are believed to be in immediate danger. Angie Voss, the CPS worker responsible, admits that she did not believe these over 400 children were in immediate danger.
She removed them because she did not like the beliefs being taught to the children. I don't like those beliefs either, but I do not want CPS to exceed its authority in this way. This abuse of authority has far-reaching implications for all of us.
I think that the government caring about the well being of children is a bad assumption to make. The unfortunate children are now on their way to having health problems from the vaccines forced upon them. I wonder if they gave them those vaccines that can sterilize people ? That would be a good "final solution" for the "FLDS problem"
Can we please stop the comparisons between the Holocaust where a people group of 6 million people was systematically slaughtered simply because of their race and what is going on in Texas? This is so not the same!
Christine I. - Please contact me privately. You can click on my profile to get my email address. You posted without an email address, so I am not able to answer the message you sent me.
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